The Dig

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On today's episode of the Dig, I
am joined by three members of

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the altar group and I will let
the three of them introduce

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/26-2
themselves.

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Well, if you'd start us.

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Sure. Thanks, Johnnie.

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I'm Valerie Gerard Co, CEO of
the Alta Group and I lead the

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largest practice within Ulta
that's focused on providing

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/77-2
general consulting and advisory
services. And you know it might

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make sense for me just to spend
a second to introduce the Alta

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/77-4
group, to your listeners who
aren.

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Familiar with us, we have been
around for 30 years.

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We are the undisputed leader
when it comes to providing

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/102-1
advisory services.

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On a global basis to the
equipment leasing and finance.

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Industry, we are exclusively
focused on equipment finance and

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leasing.

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We're not distracted by
mortgages or consumer autos.

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It's just the core equipment
leasing business and anything

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that a client would have in
terms of a need, we do it.

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So that could be assisting them
with some growth initiatives,

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entering new markets, becoming
more efficient in what they do.

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We have a lot of competitive
intelligence, market

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intelligence work we.

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We do.

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We assist in selecting leasing
systems.

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We have a group that is focused
on equipment management, so if

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you need some appraisals,
valuations, some residual

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impairment analysis as well as
remarketing, we have a team that

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does that.

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We offer mergers and
acquisitions as a practice which

the

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industry and buy a company and
also supporting, you know,

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sellers in the industry who
might be looking to sell their

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their property to to other
financial institutions.

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So Rick, I'll turn it over to
you.

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Yeah. Thanks, Jim and Johnnie.

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I'm Rick remicar.

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I'm vice chairman with the Alta
group and Prior to joining the

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Alta group nearly five years
ago, I spent 40 years in

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commercial banking, specialty
finance, and.

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Equipment, finance and equipment
leasing and I provide support

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and consultation to all the
members of the Alta group and

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clients predominantly in the
bank equipment finance space.

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Benja will thank all three of
you for joining us here today

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and I think the best place to
start now that we have the

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introduction and as well as kind
of the background of who you

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guys are covered, the 10,000
foot view part of the reason

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why.

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We are having a discussion today
is the release of the Alta

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Group's report on sort of the
state of the equipment finance

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industry and when we're talking
about the state of the industry,

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I think the best place to start
is like I said, that 10,000

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foot.

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View and we get some of the
specific areas.

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So going into 2025, as we look
at the rest of this year, what

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is the state of the equipment
finance industry?

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Well, why don't I kick it off
and tell you that I I think

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Mm hmm.

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there's a lot of opportunity for
the industry in 2025. You know,

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we're coming off a really rough
18 month patched where you had

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the bank failures at Silicon
Valley Bank and Signature Bank.

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And that really caused a
liquidity crisis that's put put

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the industry a little bit on
pause, if not in a backward step

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or two.

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And what we're seeing now is
we're looking into 2025.

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There are a lot of signs that
seem to suggest that it's going

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to be a good year for us when
you're looking at certain

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variables in the economy, when
you're looking at signals in the

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industry itself like industry
confidence and then you have a

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new administration that's
coming.

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In with some probusiness.

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Policies that certainly would
help bolster our industry and

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would result in a very positive
experience for equipment,

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finance and leasing companies.

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There are many different avenues
that we see in terms of growth

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for the industry in terms of,
you know, climate finance and

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financing, data centers,
equipment as a service, you

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know, all of those things will
certainly bolster the industry

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in terms of its growth. I would
say, however.

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One cautionary note in that is
there are a lot of wild cards

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out there. And so while we think
that there's a lot of

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opportunity for the industry,
management teams really need to

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be thinking about, you know,
we're not going to coast.

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To growth throughout 2025, there
might be some speed bumps along

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the way.

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And let me you know, let me jump
in Valerie and just encourage

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all the all the listeners to
pull down the the 2025 Alta

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Group Insights report.

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It's a great read.

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It covers a lot of different
segments and a lot of different

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areas that some of them will
touch on during this podcast.

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But.

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You know, if I could, if I could
summarize what sort of one

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overarching theme, I think it's
net net positive outlook for

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2025.

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But certainly with high degree
of element of uncertainty.

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Maybe the advice to listeners
would be expect the unexpected.

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You know if you go back to if we
were recording this podcast

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exactly two years ago in mid
January of 20/20/20 of 2023, I

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think that we would have been
positive.

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Maybe not as positive as today,
but we would have been net

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positive at that point in two.
And just think what happened six

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or seven weeks later with the
collapse of several.

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Regional banks that created a
complete.

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Completely different industry
dynamic for the next year and a

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half or two years.

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Yeah, I think.

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I think that's a great point,
Rick.

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You know we we sort of get
lulled into a false sense of

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comfort sometimes.

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You know, Johnny, I'd follow
that up.

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Mm hmm.

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You know specifically on the M
and a market similar to

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Valerie's comments. You know the
last couple of years in terms of

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M and a activity, things have
been pretty quiet in the

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industry.

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But I think 2025 where we're
pretty well suited.

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From an economic standpoint, to
have a pretty strong M and a

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market.

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This year, you know, the market
does not like uncertainty.

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And there's there's a fair
amount of certainty around a

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number of factors, including the
fact that the uncertainty

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1049-2
election you know is now behind
us.

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We have an administration in
place.

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Who's committed to reducing
regulation and and discussing a

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reduction in the corporate tax
rates?

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1076-0
The stock market continues to
perform well.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1096-0
Unemployment levels are low.
Those traditionally a factors

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that generally contribute to a
pretty strong M and a market.

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The one factor that that's still
a little bit of a you know, an

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uncertainty at this point and
it's just you know reared its

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1126-2
head not too long ago when we
had a super strong jobs report.

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You know the interest rate cut
has has kind of been sidelined,

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1133-0
Mm hmm.

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if you will, by the Fed and
they're they're kind of

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backpedaling a bit on that. And
I think some of the Fed members

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1162-3
are even thinking a hike might
be in order.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1168-0
That, of course, will.

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Will quell some M and a activity
if rates indeed rise.

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I think if I think you know the
other factors in the environment

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1213-1
should keep us pretty steady,
but I'd caution keep an eye on

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1213-2
interest rates cause those do
impact the the the level of M

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1213-3
and a activity.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1218-0
Gotcha. Fantastic.

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And you know one thing I wanted
to get into, especially on the

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1250-1
the M and a side and we can talk
about how this sort of plays

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1250-2
into the wider equipment finance
space as well as are there any

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1250-3
particular segments in terms of
you know, bank owned versus.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1281-0
Independent or you know,
specific asset types where

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1281-1
you're seeing lenders that are
focused on these asset types

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1281-2
more attractive in the M and a
space. Is there anything like

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1281-3
that that's standing out as we
start to look at the rest of

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1281-4
this year?

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1289-0
Well, I think I think a couple
of factors.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1292-0
You know.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1303-0
Let let's talk about a couple
things that are going on in the

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1303-1
marketplace.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1346-0
One area I think is is the lift
out teams that we're seeing. So

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1346-1
certain strategics and others
are investing not not only in

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1346-2
focused on complete companies,
if you will, but are focused on

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1346-3
potentially lift out teams where
senior executives are brought

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1346-4
over. That might help a strateg.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1357-0
To expand its market offerings
or gain some additional

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1357-1
relationships.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1373-0
Think of the folks from Madison
Capital going over to Oakmont

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1373-1
recently.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1380-0
Think again about the folks from
Honor Capital moving over to

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1380-1
Dex.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1403-0
And I think we'll continue to
see those opportunistic lift

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1403-1
outs going on throughout the
course of 2025.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1407-0
You know, I'd, I'd say the real
winners.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1410-0
For for.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1439-0
For the past year and I've seen
a lot of private equity

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1439-1
investment in there, are these,
you know, middle market

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1439-2
structured firms where the
private equity companies feel

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1439-3
there's still a good return to
be made.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1477-0
With those businesses basically
picking up the slack for the

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1477-1
banks as they sort of exited
those, those that tranche of

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1477-2
assets and that tranche of
lending and those private equity

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1477-3
firms that went out and actually
built teams or acquired teams

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1477-4
that were versed in bringing
over structured cred.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1492-0
And potentially, you know,
structuring those in such a way

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1492-1
that they provide a strong
return.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1500-0
Similar to the Stonebriar model,
if you will.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1511-0
Where they can actually make a
decent return on their

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1511-1
investment.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1519-0
Yeah, Jim and I would just echo
that.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1563-0
I think that one of the big
questions hanging over all of

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1563-1
the private equity investment in
the industry, which has been

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1563-2
significant and in some of the
most significant private equity

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1563-3
investment I've seen in in many
decades is when the banks get

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1563-4
back into the market if and.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1591-0
When they get back into the
market, will, will, will pricing

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1591-1
compression margin compression
Dr. pricing down across the

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1591-2
industry or will it really be
constrained to that bank credit

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1591-3
quality?

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1593-0
Sector.

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And you know, I think the early
signs are hopeful that the banks

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1631-1
are the bank equipment finance
companies are having greater

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1631-2
pricing discipline, focusing on
risk adjusted return, focusing

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1631-3
on customer relationships and
total relationship return. But

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1631-4
as they say, time will tell.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1636-0
That's an excellent point, Rick.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1638-0
Agreed.

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Gotcha. OK. And as we talk about
sort of the potential turn of

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1661-1
the the banks, I know that's a
potential risk factor.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1692-0
One of the other ones I want to
touch on specifically and then

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1692-1
we can talk about any other risk
factors that are worth

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1692-2
discussing. Is the potential
risk factor of tariffs. And

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1692-3
that's been kind of the the buzz
word that's been thrown around

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1692-4
since the election as one.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1719-0
Of the things that can
potentially limit what's

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1719-1
happening in the economy as a
whole, but it it transits into

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1719-2
equipment finance with so much
of our industry having

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1719-3
international firms.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1730-0
From where you guys said how
much of A role is that going to

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1730-1
play?

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1743-0
From how much of A concern
should that be as we start kind

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1743-1
of forecasting the equipment
finance sector for 2025?

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1749-0
Well, I think it could be.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1762-0
It could be wide-ranging and as
we sit here today on in mid

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1762-1
January.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1799-0
We don't know what we don't know
and no one does, to be honest,

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1799-1
at this point, I think what you
have to be concerned with is not

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1799-2
only, you know, the Trump
administration tariffs, that

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1799-3
they potentially could impose,
but then what's the cause and

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1799-4
effect, what are the?

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1809-0
Retaliatory tariffs that might
be imposed.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1813-0
By an EU country.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1825-0
Or another country that could
impact somebody that needs

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1825-1
machinery.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1837-0
That's manufactured in Germany
or wherever it might be.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1870-0
So you know, the one thing that
I think we can be certain of in

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1870-1
in the tariff environment is
there will be winners and

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1870-2
losers, but it's a bit difficult
to exactly predict who's going

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1870-3
to be the winner and who's going
to be the loser at this point.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1872-0
In time.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1914-0
And and I would say from my
standpoint, Johnny, you know the

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1914-1
thing to be, you know crystal
clear about and careful of is

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1914-2
you know during you know 2020 we
came off a supply chain shortage

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1914-3
due to the fact that you know
everyone was homesick with COV.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1928-0
And factory workers weren't
working.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1943-0
You know, these tariffs could
have a similar impact with

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1943-1
supply chain shortages if if
indeed we don't have.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1952-0
Companies here in the states
that are building equivalent

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1952-1
products.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1996-0
Or, you know, it could even be
from a parts perspective that

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1996-1
it's more difficult to get parts
and parts are more expensive to

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1996-2
maintain existing pieces of
equipment which will obviously

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1996-3
impact the industry and impact.
You know our ability to, you

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/1996-4
know, hit the higher volumes
through those.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2010-0
Equipment finance companies, if,
if the supply chain is again

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2010-1
disrupted.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2030-0
You know, we touch on it in the
insights report and again, I'd

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2030-1
encourage listeners to pull that
report down.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2047-0
But the one trend that we can
definitely speak to is there's

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2047-1
been for US manufacturers.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2075-0
There has been a definite trend
to diversify their supplier

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2075-1
base, so they're not dependent
only on China or only on one

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2075-2
particular country and then
where possible, and where

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2075-3
feasible and practical.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2077-0
To bring.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2084-0
Some manufacturing back into the
United States.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2139-0
States. So I think you'll see
that continued trend towards re

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2139-1
shoring to the United States
were practical but also

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2139-2
diversifying and not relying
strictly on China and having

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2139-3
manufacturing capabilities in
several countries. So that you

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2139-4
know significant tariffs or
geopolitical activities in a

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2139-5
particular country don't create
a.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2145-0
Complete shutdown in their
supply chain.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2152-0
Got you know that makes a ton of
sense.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2187-0
And you know, as we start
looking at the the rest of the

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2187-1
year, we've talked about kind of
two of the the key challenges I

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2187-2
would just you know ask is there
is there any other thing that we

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2187-3
should be watching from a
challenging side and then we?

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2196-0
Can get into some of the the
wider activity in the space.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2211-0
Well, I think we've touched a
little bit on trade policy with

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2211-1
tariffs.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2253-0
We talked briefly about monetary
policy as it relates to interest

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2253-1
rates and, you know, uncertainty
around if rates will fall if

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2253-2
they fall, how much will they
fall or could rates remain flat

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2253-3
or could they rise the other
part of monetary policy to be

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2253-4
mindful of is stren.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2276-0
Of the US dollar and how that
impacts both imports and

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2276-1
exports. And then I think the
third leg of the stool.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2277-0
So trade policy.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2303-0
Monetary policy. And then I
think we need to be mindful of

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2303-1
tax policy, probably a net net
positive for most customers, but

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2303-2
something to be mindful of
heading into 2025.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2309-0
Patrick, OK, that makes a ton of
sense.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2347-0
I I think the other thing I
would add to that, Rick, if if I

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2347-1
could, you know we and not that
they'll have us you know direct

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2347-2
impact but but certainly
something to keep an eye on as

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2347-3
the geopolitical conflicts that
are going on in the world right.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2358-0
Now we, you know, we still have
issues in Europe.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2361-0
We still have issues in the
Middle East.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2387-0
Who knows what's going to, you
know, take place with Taiwan and

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2387-1
China, but you know, certainly
things to consider along the way

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2387-2
as these tend to take a little
bit of focus off.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2415-0
You know the US economy and and
put it squarely in the rest of

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2415-1
the world which you know can
obviously impact our ability to

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2415-2
continue to do business and and
be successful.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2417-0
So something else to consider.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2428-0
Gotcha. No, that that is also
something that I yeah, I don't

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2428-1
think it's mentioned enough.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2449-0
I've heard a lot more mentioned
over the past, maybe six months

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2449-1
or so that you know, the
geopolitical aspect is something

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2449-2
that even for the US firms, they
have to account for.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2481-0
And so I I think you for
mentioning that one other thing

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2481-1
I want to touch on and this can
be a a positive or a negative.

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2481-2
And I I say it that way, just
because you mentioned as well

2f8b3a32-f44d-4180-9d33-060c94098203/2481-3